The king said: ‘He who is born, Nāgasena, does he remain the same or become another?’

‘Neither the same nor another.’

‘Give me an illustration.’

‘Now what do you think, O king? You were once a baby, a tender thing, and small in size, lying flat on your back. Was that the same as you who are now grown up?’

‘No. That child was one, I am another.’

‘If you are not that child, it will follow that you have had neither mother nor father, no! nor teacher. You cannot have been taught either learning, or behaviour, or wisdom. What, great king! is the mother of the embryo in the first stage different from the mother of the embryo in the second stage, or the third, or the fourth ? Is the mother of the baby a different person from the mother of the grown-up man? Is the person who goes to school one, and the same when he has finished his schooling another? Is it one who commits a crime, another who is punished by having his hands or feet cut off ?’

‘Certainly not. But what would you, Sir, say to that? ’

The Elder replied: ‘I should say that I am the same person, now I am grown up, as I was when I was a tender tiny baby, flat on my back. For all these states are included in one by means of this body.’

‘Give me an illustration.’

‘Suppose a man, O king, were to light a lamp, would it burn the night through?’

‘Yes, it might do so.’

‘Now, is it the same flame that burns in the first watch of the night, Sir, and in the second?’

‘No.’

‘Or the same that burns in the second watch and in the third?’

‘No.’

‘Then is there one lamp in the first watch, and another in the second, and another in the third?’

‘No. The light comes from the same lamp all the night through.’

‘Just so, O king, is the continuity of a person or thing maintained. One comes into being, another passes away; and the rebirth is, as it were, simultaneous. Thus neither as the same nor as another does a man go on to the last phase of his self-consciousness.’

‘Give me a further illustration.’

‘It is like milk, which when once taken from the cow, turns, after a lapse of time, first to curds, and then from curds to butter, and then from butter to ghee. Now would it be right to say that the milk was the same thing as the curds, or the butter, or the ghee?’

‘Certainly not; but they are produced out of it.’

‘Just so, O king, is the continuity of a person or thing maintained. One comes into being, another passes away; and the rebirth is, as it were, simultaneous. Thus neither as the same nor as another does a man go on to the last phase of his self-consciousness.’

‘Well put, Nāgasena!’